In Conversation: Numero Group Co-founder Ken Shipley
By Landen Fulton
One thing that originally drew me to choosing this label was the six defining themes or genres that you guys have – those being Eccentric Soul, Wayfaring Strangers, Cult Cargo, etc. Could you tell me a little bit more about how you chose those specific categories?
The categories kind of chose us, right? Like, you listen to music, and then you make piles of it. And then you sort of move towards records that make the tallest pile. And I don’t know, you know, with eccentric soul, my partner Rob Severe, it was an idea that he had for a seven-inch box set. And then it just became a really long series of records. Cult Cargo was an idea that we came up with our trip back from New York after we got into Compton Fairweather’s Ces label out of Belize. I mean, all of them are just sort of ideas that expanded beyond the realm of what we originally thought they would be. We start one thing, and it becomes another, and then all of a sudden, you’ve got like, 20 records in a series.
Do you find that these genres really have a lot of overlap with your personal music tastes before signing the label? Or are you just trying to go for a lot of diversity among the label?
Good question. I don’t know that it’s possible to be, like, a hardcore fan of anything that we’re working on before we get into it, but there’s certainly been cases where we really love something – like Unwound or Duster or something like that – where it’s something that we experienced, and it’s time. I guess the the further it is away from your life, it’s kind of hard to call yourself a fan of like, you know, a deeply obscure private press record from 1972. So I think that runs the spectrum.
Another reason that I was really drawn to Numero Group is because I listened to an interview once, and you said that generally, what triggers a project is when someone at Numero becomes extremely passionate about a handful of songs or an artist. So I was gonna ask you, are there any artists or collections that you just have been dying to add to your label?
Oh, I mean, there’s tons. There’s so many, like, country labels and solo labels, and, you know, we really wanted to do the Link records, we’re still trying to do the Evergreen records – there’s so many things that are out there to do. Sometimes you get the opportunity to do them, and sometimes you don’t. I think about like, what my original passions were when I started making records back in 1995, and that was that I just wanted to own a copy of the record, right? I wanted to be able to put it on my shelf. And I still feel that way about a lot of the records that we make where it’s like, “God, it’d be really cool just to have that record, to have a copy of it.” And so I tried to apply some of those same original metrics that I was into when I first started making records, which was like, let’s just make things that I would want.
Well, alternatively, over the years, has there ever been a release that has started a bit of controversy where someone at the label wanted something to be added to the collection and someone else didn’t? Has that ever occurred?
Oh, happens all the time. But that’s just compromise, like, not every record that you’re gonna make is going to be the exact facsimile of what you envisioned it to be? That’s part of being a team. I think that like, the more voices that we add to the group, the stronger that it gets, and the more interesting it gets.
I definitely agree. And I think you guys have a pretty diverse array of music, especially releasing a lot recently. I noticed when reading about your label, that a lot of times you find these releases just by chance. Is there one that really stuck out to you that you found in a very obscure way, that’s just an anomaly that you found it?
I mean, define obscure, right? Like, the most obscure way that you could find a recording is on the single copy of a master tape, for instance, because that’s the only copy, and that’s the only way that you could discover it. So that’s perhaps the most happenstance situation that you can encounter, but it’s kind of normal. You know, I take it for granted – we are sitting on thousands of master tapes all the time. And, you know, you come across something and you’re like, “Oh, that’s, that’s brilliant.” I mean, Penny and the Quarters is an incredible example of something that we found while just going through an old studio’s library, and finding a really transcendent moment that we felt needed to be unleashed upon the world, and it ended up becoming one of the biggest songs of the first 10 years of the label. And yeah, that was a complete accident. But, you’re looking for something, right? Like, you don’t just go and listen to a box of master tapes from an obscure studio because you think there’s nothing there and you’re just doing this for educational purposes. You’re going through there because they had a particular style or perspective that you’re interested [in], and you know that the potential for there being greatness in there is pretty high, based on another set of data that you already have – whether it’s where the studio is located or the type of music that they recorded.
Where do you normally find these master tapes?
It can be anywhere. Like, if you go into an old studio, you could talk to somebody who went to a yard sale and picked up a box of tapes. I mean, it could be at a radio station. Recordings have been going on for what, eighty years on magnetic tape? So there’s a pretty solid history of the world, and most of the music has not been heard – most music is still unheard, so the potential for discovery is kind of endless. And I mean, if you’re anywhere where they have old acetates or masters or anything like that, then the potential is high. If you put yourself in those situations – whether that be, you know, going to estate sales, calling people who used to run record labels, going to different studios, what have you – you’re gonna set yourself up for success.
One of your most recent releases [from] Ozeon, that’s one of my favorite songs, and I have been waiting for a physical and streaming release for a long time. So I was very excited when I saw you guys released it. Can you walk me through how you found that and how you went about adding it to your label?
Ozeon was this group from San Jose, California that existed for like, a year in the early 90s. And the thing that’s kind of interesting about that is that I’m from San Jose, California, and I lived there in the early 90s and I had no idea that this happened. And so when I stumbled upon it on this kind of like, shoegaze underground channel on YouTube, I thought that the three songs were really good. And then, when I kind of dove into the backstory and learned that they were from my hometown, it just seemed kind of kismet. What we do is we find people – that’s the goal here. We hear music that we think is interesting and that we want to excavate and then we get in touch with the people and we discuss the possibility of that excavation. And with [Ozeon], you know, I think that [there needed to be some healing] between some of the members, and sometimes what we do can be that healing. I also think that there was a lot wrapped up in that music that was unfulfilled, and to pay off on that promise is interesting to anybody who thought they were going to have a career in music and then didn’t. Really, I think it’s that proximity, you know? Mike from Ozeon lives like five miles from me right now. And being able to drive over to his house and talk to him about his life and his music made all the difference in the world. Putting in that time and that care and putting like, I don’t know, half a year or so to get them to agree to come to Numero.
Is this a common occurrence? [Where] there’s a little controversy amongst the band members and they might not initially want to talk to you guys at Numero?
I think that you know, anytime that people make art together, [there are] different opinions about what should have happened with that art, and the custodial nature of that art. And sometimes it’s better when you can approach them as just outside custodian. Like, not everybody’s great at being their own archivist. In fact, most of the time when people are making stuff, they don’t think it’s any good, and so they tend to sort of throw it away. It’s very rare that people are archiving their own lives in real-time. And Ozeon is no different from that. It was hard to find the tapes, it was hard to find the photos – every part of this is disintegrated. But, you know, again, having that third party who’s willing to go and put in that energy is the difference maker between these things maybe getting self-released, and not getting released at all.
Yeah, I can certainly see how you coming in and talking to these artists can be a good mediator, even after years of tension. [On] Ozeon’s release – do you plan on having a physical release as well? And do you always try to have a physical release for artists? Or only specific ones?
There are plans for an Ozeon 12-inch to compile the three songs. We tend to sort of make [physical] records based on data. If you go to our Spotify, for instance, and you look at [the playlists titled] “Numero 23,” or “Future Classics,” or “Classics,” or “Bubblers,” or any of the major playlists, we’re essentially gathering common data on what tracks people are listening to and what they want to make. And then, as tracks sort of gain more traction, they move up in the priority of the release schedule. We ideally want to bring something into record stores and into our webshop when people have actually heard of it and listened to it. So you’re kind of pulling the customer towards you, rather than pushing a bunch of stuff that they don’t know [onto] them. By having one, a lot of catalog, and two, patience, you can certainly begin to predict what the market wants and what it’s interested in.
So whenever you’re curating these playlists on Spotify, or Apple Music, are all of the artists on these playlists already on Numero? Or are you almost scouting the field to see what’s tracking?
No, not all the time, but that’s also because like, I don’t subscribe to the idea that Numero has like, every great song in the world. And sometimes when I make a playlist, I just want to make a list of 100 songs that all sort of fit together. And if we only have 15 Numero songs that fit that bill, I still am interested in assembling the rest of it. If not for other people to enjoy them, just for me to enjoy. [Again], I’m interested in listening to and making things that I would want to listen to. I just think that at a certain point, you know, it’s just like I have really refined taste. And we have a bunch of other people here with really refined tastes. And, you know, we’re doing our job, and we’re making things that people want and want to listen to.
Are you and Rob the ones making these curated playlists on the streaming services?
There’s a bunch of people who work at the label – Rob has certainly made playlists in his time. We actually have a young woman by the name of Halle Munin who runs the playlists now, and she does an amazing job sort of just keeping them well-curated. We release something like 10 to 15 songs a week, just digitally. So a lot of time, we’re just sort of feeding songs into all sorts of different playlists in the hopes that it might catch fire. Not everything is going to work – sometimes, you put something up and nobody cares. Even if you have the most passion for it in the world, people aren’t going to care. They don’t like it. And then other times, you put no energy and no passion into something, and you just kind of flop it out, and people go nuts for it. So, again, following that original data and just making sure that you’re paying attention is sometimes more important than, like, thinking that you’re going to write about every hit song in the catalog that you had. We’re not geniuses or anything like that, we’re scientists.
Are there any artists or songs that have blown up since joining your collection that you just never saw coming?
I mean, it happens. You know, like, for instance, there’s this band called the Travelers who made records in Arizona and the 1960s. And they’re kind of a mix of like, surf and loping instrumental country music, and all of a sudden a lot of people are listening to it. Kay Johnson is another example, an actress who made like two or three records in her time, and then made no more records. She’s got this one called “Walk Through the Valley.” And all of a sudden, it has 200,000 streams out of nowhere. We didn’t do anything, we didn’t expect it or predict it. I mean, maybe even the best case scenario is somebody like Bernadette Carroll, whose “Laughing on the Outside” became a massive hit, just, you know, based on the fact that it was used in a British television show, so, you know, it happens all the time, where something that you didn’t know was going to be “the thing” ends up becoming “the thing.”
Right, especially when you’re releasing so much volume of music. And then I saw that you recently had a pop-up, I believe in Austin, Texas, where bands like Unwound and Codeine performed. Tell me about how you went about getting Unwound to perform again, because I believe they haven’t performed many times since their dismemberment in 2002.
Well, we started working on the box sets in 2012, and I think the first one came out in 2013. A thought that I had always had in my brain when we were initially doing this was that it would be really cool if they could play, and they were really opposed to that at the time. But then a bunch of stuff happens and life goes on, and you get older and reorganize your priorities as you move through middle age, and eventually, they just wanted to do it again. So we did a “Numero 20” thing. And then they did a bunch of solo Unwound tour shows – like 15 shows or something. After we did “Numero 20” in LA in February, Levitation got in touch and was like, “Hey, would you want to do a more stripped-down version of this in Texas?” So we put together sort of a program for the weekend and had a pop-up store and show and sort of like a Texas takeover, as it were.
To my understanding, Numero has a very similar mission to freeform radio – and WXYC in particular – [which is] giving and sharing airtime to unconventional artists and forgotten recordings that you wouldn’t really hear anywhere else. So can you tell me why you personally think it’s important to uncover and share these stories and forgotten music?
Well, I mean, it’s kind of about producing an alternate narrative to the history written by the winners. But the cool thing about the internet is that it sort of flattened out information, and we can surface things that maybe didn’t get a shot in their original incarnation. But now, through the lens of time and technology, [we can] open the gates to discovering voices that probably should have been discovered at the time.
Published: 9/20/2024
Postmodern Junk
Postmodern Junk delves into the fragmented and ironic world of contemporary arts. Serving as an eclectic digital journal that explores the avant-garde fringes of independent film and music. Featured sights and sounds include: electronica, new wave, punk, jazz, math rock, and folk.
